SEASON 04 | EPISODE 04

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[00:00:00] Andrea: This episode contains descriptions of disordered eating, so please take care. Resources are available in the show notes.

[00:00:12] Andrea: The strangeness of what was happening with my sister hit me little by little and then all at once, [00:00:20] because of course these behaviors of hers with deception and medical issues went back quite a ways. We both. I moved out of the house for college when we turned 18 and, you know, I went to [00:00:40] California for college and then went to New York for the rest of my 20s and, you know, I was just being a young person and living my own life and she was on the other side of the country.

[00:00:52] Andrea: We, our family really stayed close. Throughout most of that time, [00:01:00] even though there was this sort of escalating series of strange things, which was really exemplified by the fake pregnancy that she had when she and I were both in our 20s, you know, you would think that that would have been enough. That’s a situation that I look back and think, like, [00:01:20] how could you not have understood?

[00:01:23] Andrea: How serious this was when that happened. And. I think that she just had enough sort of markers of still having a normal life at that point. You know, she had this full time job that she, as a nurse, that she’d had forever. She still had a lot of the same [00:01:40] friends at that point. For myself and for my parents, it was when her son was born and he was born early and he started having this, you know, series of escalating health issues that the situation just became intolerable.

[00:01:55] Andrea: And I think when I [00:02:00] talk to other people who are either family members or, you know, non offending spouses or survivors like Joe, We all kind of have this commonality in our experience of like, it was our normal with the person, and it sort of seemed normal until all of a [00:02:20] sudden it didn’t. And then you’re looking back at a whole bunch of incidents that led up to that, and you suddenly see them in this very dramatic way.

[00:02:26] Andrea: And I think for someone who’s outside listening to this experience, it’s easy to say, how could you not know something was wrong? What about this? What about that? And you don’t realize like how, [00:02:40] like how entrenched you are in that person’s world when you’re close to them. And I think that’s obviously extremely potent for survivors because that’s their parent and that’s sort of the person who created their whole reality when they were growing up.

[00:02:53] Andrea: One of the huge benefits from having. Some kind of peer support with this issue. So talking [00:03:00] to other people who’ve, who’ve been through cases, um, is that you feel this relief that you are not crazy. I think

[00:03:13] Andrea: being close to one of these people makes you doubt reality. And usually for a pretty long period of [00:03:20] time. And when you talk to someone else who’s had that really similar experience, you just, you realize that they’re not crazy and that makes you realize that you’re not crazy. And you can both sort of describe, sort of beat for beat, such a similar experience and they’re just such strong parallels in these cases that [00:03:40] Being able to see that pattern and then sort of look back at your own history and see where those parallels are makes you realize that you’re not crazy, you weren’t.

[00:03:52] Andrea: foolish for missing it. You, you know, aren’t culpable for caring about that person and trying to help them. [00:04:00] I think one of the things that makes getting out of that space that is That’s the reality created by a perpetrator. What makes it so difficult for their children is that they have to leave the house and start to develop other support networks.

[00:04:19] Andrea: That’s [00:04:20] sort of when we usually see survivors coming to some sort of realization about what happened to them. That happened for Joe because of Donna’s alcoholism. Um, because the reason that Joe was separated from Donna, had nothing to do with the medical child abuse, and that revelation wouldn’t come until later.[00:04:40]

[00:04:40] Andrea: But, the wheels were just coming off with Donna. She was just becoming much less functional by the time that Joe was a teenager. And, um, This, ironically, you know, allowed Joe to get away from Donna earlier than they probably would have otherwise, [00:05:00] and this very well could have saved their life.

[00:05:07] Andrea: People believe their eyes. That’s something that is so central to this topic because we do believe the people that we love when they’re telling us something. If we didn’t, you could never make it through your day. I’m Andrea [00:05:20] Dunlop, and this is Nobody Should Believe Me.

[00:05:28] Andrea: If you’d like to support the show, the best way to do that is to subscribe on Apple Podcasts or on Patreon, where you can get all episodes early and ad free, along with extended cuts and deleted [00:05:40] scenes from this season, as well as two exclusive bonus episodes every month. If monetary support is not an option, rating and reviewing the show wherever you listen helps a great deal.

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[00:06:10] Andrea: With their older sister out of the house and both their biological father Reza and Dale, the father they grew up with, on the outs with Donna, Joe was alone with their mom a [00:06:20] lot. And as the abuse escalated, it became intolerable. As Joe got into their teen years, they started to resist their mom’s controlling behavior, which only made Donna tighten her grip.

[00:06:31] Andrea: In looking for sanctuary from their mother’s abuse, Joe turned to more or less the only place one could look for help in Hutchinson. And that’s the church. [00:06:40]

[00:06:40] Jo: I guess maybe because that was when I was a teenager, I was probably 14 ish. And so that’s when I started to kind of break away from my mom a little bit.

[00:06:53] Jo: And I think she felt threatened by that. And so she started saying like, I was a Jesus freak. And [00:07:00] she would tell me that my neighbors were going to kidnap me. And she would tell me and others that the church I was going to was a cult and like how bad it was and all of these things, which at that point in my life made me want to go more because I.

[00:07:16] Jo: Didn’t want my mom to be like happy. I was [00:07:20] really mad at her for drinking. Um, nothing to do with MVP stuff. Like high school is the first time I ever told anyone anything that was happening in my home. Prior to that, when I started getting more involved with church where I started, I opened up to my neighbors.

[00:07:35] Jo: And my youth leader, uh, for youth for Christ. He was the first [00:07:40] person I ever told anything that was happening. But all these people then that started to be in my life that were involved in church started to think I was making up illnesses and stuff. It was my choice to be healthy and I could just stop having an eating disorder and I could stop being sick.

[00:07:57] Jo: And. Even though I was still in the home [00:08:00] and all the other things. Without the context of the abuse

[00:08:04] Andrea: that they were suffering, the other adults in Jo’s life didn’t understand that whatever disparities they were noticing between Jo’s alleged health problems and the seeming reality of their health were not the result of Jo’s choices, but of their mother’s.

[00:08:17] Andrea: And this set up a confusing and often [00:08:20] adversarial relationship between Jo and their body that would manifest in myriad ways over the years to come. Just how fraught this connection had become was something that Joe wouldn’t even fully have a handle on until they obtained their medical records as an adult and began to understand the scope of their mom’s abuse.

[00:08:38] Jo: I think it wasn’t [00:08:40] until I looked through my records what like a few days ago that it really hit me how deliberate it all was and how like so many of the illnesses and things were so like planned out, like it’d be planted seeds of, Oh, she’s having these little symptoms. And then all of [00:09:00] a sudden there’d be emergencies and things like that.

[00:09:02] Jo: Like there were so many seeds that were being planted that then like exploded and turned into something really big. Um, and I still, it’s really hard to grapple with that and understand it. And I know, I mean, Looking back with all of it, it’s like she was very [00:09:20] deliberate about everything. She pitted me and my sister against each other our whole lives.

[00:09:24] Jo: You know, like, I was the thin one. I was the athletic one. I was the sick one who needed attention. And she did it deliberately, right? To make it so that, like, I would fight with her and she would fight with me. Like, we would fight over who was mom’s favorite and [00:09:40] who could get attention from mom. And then she would, like, if she was mad at us, she would Give you the silent treatment and like, wouldn’t talk to you or would just cry.

[00:09:50] Jo: Like I remember starting in fourth grade, writing poems to her. Uh, the first poem I wrote was for you, mom. And it was like a three page [00:10:00] poem about like how good she was and how much I loved her and needed her and stuff like that. And that just kept going where I would have to write these letters and stuff, which ironically, one time I like looked through my mom’s stuff and there was like, I found.

[00:10:15] Jo: a letter from the person who I thought was my dad, and then from [00:10:20] another one of my mom’s exes where they wrote letters to her about how amazing she was and how much they loved her and how much they like wanted her to stay in their lives. So she knew what she was doing and she had, she had us all wrapped around her finger.

[00:10:35] Jo: Like she knew exactly what strings to pull to like get us to behave in the [00:10:40] ways that she wanted and needed in those moments.

[00:10:46] Andrea: Joe was isolated with their mom, who was really deteriorating by this point. Given that Joe had been coached to be terrified of Reza, and he wasn’t really in their life, the only other option was Dale, who also really [00:11:00] wasn’t up to the task of parenting.

[00:11:02] Jo: When I was 14, my mom’s alcoholism had gotten a lot worse and it had become pretty unsafe to be in my home.

[00:11:12] Jo: The cops were there quite often and we were quite well known around town for that. And so when [00:11:20] I was 14, I was finally taken out of the home by the cops. for the alcoholism. Absolutely nothing to do with the Munchausen by proxy. And I was put with my dad for a little while. However, once my mom went to rehab and had this like miraculous [00:11:40] recovery, I was placed back with her, even though on the way home, the social worker literally said to me that she knew that my mom was still drinking and there was just nothing that she could do.

[00:11:51] Jo: And so I ended up back in the home, uh, at. 15, 16. And once I saw that my mom [00:12:00] was still drinking and knew that there was really nobody that could help me. And so I ended up homeless from 16 to 18 until I was able to move in with my sister as an adult, but I never Within all of that, I had never really recognized that I [00:12:20] wasn’t sick.

[00:12:20] Jo: I still thought that I had all these different things. I can remember my asthma suddenly going away. And I had told myself that like, Oh, I’ve just gotten really good at pushing through it. And I’m just like acting like I don’t have it, but I still thought I did. I thought that it was just like, I was [00:12:40] stronger than it or something like that.

[00:12:42] Jo: But that is when my, when I got taken out is when my eating disorder started. And I think that that was kind of, since I was no longer in and out of the hospital because of my mom, I think that I started to be in and out of the hospital for this eating disorder [00:13:00] because I didn’t know any different. And the hospital had become such a safe place in a way for me to be taken care of, and I was a kid that was homeless.

[00:13:11] Jo: And so. I needed some sort of care still.

[00:13:16] Andrea: Eating disorders are more common in people who experience childhood trauma, [00:13:20] and many Munchausen by proxy survivors report struggling with them as Jo did. Joe was also a teen during the early to mid aughts, which were a particularly bleak and ruthless time when it came to body image.

[00:13:35] Andrea: Not that it isn’t a problem today, but back then, any deviation from the [00:13:40] ideal of lean muscle and no discernible body fat would mean a full on public shaming. Say Jessica Simpson mom jeans to any millennial, And watch for the full body shudder. So being a young person during this time, you kind of had no chance to begin with.

[00:13:55] Andrea: Our sense of self as teenagers is always pretty fragile, but Jo’s had been [00:14:00] utterly poisoned by Donna.

[00:14:02] Jo: I had formed this vision of myself as this evil, bad, manipulative. contaminant of a human. Um, and that’s kind of how I viewed myself in the world. I thought that bad things happened to me [00:14:20] because of me and that it was like all my fault.

[00:14:23] Jo: And I think that was reflected a lot, especially in high school by different people that could have been, should have been, were supposedly mentors and things like that. And so I just. There was nothing really [00:14:40] in me that said like, oh, my mom’s bad. I think, you know, obviously I knew that she was like an alcoholic, so I knew that she had a lot of issues with that, but I still didn’t have any idea about a lot of the trauma and abuse I had really gone through.

[00:14:59] Jo: So, [00:15:00] um, in 2016, when I went out of state, for eating disorder treatment. Uh, they had wanted me to write a timeline where they wanted me to write all of the memories I had about what I had been through throughout my life, which let me just say, nobody should ever be told to do that when they [00:15:20] first start treatment.

[00:15:21] Jo: But when I sat down to write my timeline, I was like, I don’t have any memories pre being like 13 years old. And so that was a very weird experience. Like all I could remember was, like I said, being like kind of happy and fun [00:15:40] and having like a decent childhood and But then I struggle with dissociation and whenever I would dissociate, I’d be hiding in closets or like really, really fearful or unable to talk.

[00:15:53] Jo: And so I was like, why when I’m having this dissociation? and appearing younger, [00:16:00] am I so scared? But my only memories are of being happy and carefree and having fun. And like, this does not add up at all. And so I reached out, that’s when I reached out to family members and teachers and people from my past.

[00:16:17] Andrea: And how old were you when you first went to treatment for [00:16:20] your eating disorder? When I first went to treatment,

[00:16:22] Jo: I was,

[00:16:23] Andrea: Sixteen. 

Joe has been in the process of trying to put their memories back together for the better part of a decade now, mostly from afar. I really admire their bravery because I know how hard it is to come to terms with what this abuse really is, to [00:16:40] really look at it in the face, and that’s why most people, including some survivors, avoid it at all costs.

[00:16:47] Andrea: My sister didn’t have nearly as profound an impact on my identity as Joe’s mom had on theirs. But coming to terms with who my sister is has had the effect of recasting my childhood in an entirely new [00:17:00] light. Everything looks different. The way that my sister’s pets always seemed to be the ones that got sick.

[00:17:06] Andrea: Her suddenly getting close to anyone who was ill or impaired. As Joe and I have become close over the years, we’ve spent some time unpacking this dissonance and asking these questions. Was anything about this person real? Did they ever [00:17:20] really love me? I know how emotional it is for me to talk to people from my own childhood.

[00:17:26] Andrea: Sometimes I hear from people who don’t know anything about what’s happened with Megan and just casually ask me how she’s been. Or sometimes, they find this podcast first. And then, it’s a very different conversation. [00:17:40] And for me, at least most of my memories are still there, even if they don’t make sense.

[00:17:46] Andrea: For Jo, coming back to Hutchinson must feel like walking into a forest with a blindfold on. How does it feel being back here?

[00:17:56] Jo: It has been such a whirlwind and really, [00:18:00] really weird, honestly. I’m already emotional thinking about like how far I’ve come and all the things that I’ve like survived to get to this point and knowing like how little of my story has ever really been shared and how much impact I think that [00:18:20] it could have on other people.

[00:18:22] Jo: And just like, yeah, just the opportunity. to be here doing this and that it’s all real and really happening, um, and literally just the fact that I’m alive really makes me emotional probably every day.[00:18:40]

[00:18:48] Andrea: One of the people Jo remembers having helped them survive this precarious teen period where they were struggling with homelessness was Kristen. Kristen had her own struggles growing up in and around [00:19:00] Hutch and at the time she was raising a small child and in a troubled relationship.

[00:19:07] Andrea: But Kristen and Joe saw each other for who they were, and they did their best to be supportive. They kept a hold of each other like imperfect ports in the chaotic storms of both their lives. And [00:19:20] while they’d seen some life updates here and there about each other on social media, like so many of us do with friends from childhood, they hadn’t been together in the same room for almost a decade.

[00:19:29] Kristin: It has been 10 years. I know. Like a literal decade. A literal decade. A

[00:19:35] Andrea: literal decade. Kristen is a pretty midwestern mom who arrives in a cute floral dress. [00:19:40] It’s February, but the unseasonable warmth has the locals dressed for spring. And she has a big warm smile. Joe met Kristen when she hired them as a babysitter, back when her kids were little, following an unfortunate incident with a different Hutchinson teen who decided to use her babysitting time to throw a wild party at Kristen’s house.

[00:19:59] Andrea: [00:20:00] Joe and Kristen crack up as they remember the series of events that led to their fortuitous meeting. Joe had been kicked out of Dale’s house by this time, and unmoored as they were, they still struck Kristen as completely trustworthy. Um,

[00:20:12] Kristin: I, just, I feel the same, like, Joe has always been my sister. You’ve always been [00:20:20] family.

[00:20:20] Kristin: Like, we’ve always been family. And I love you so much. Like, from the instant I met Joe, like, it was like, I remember she was wearing like little neon shorts. I picked her up to come babysit for me. And I’m like, this, this girl is adorable. [00:20:40] And I remember coming home After, and she’d watch the kids, and she’d made them snacks, and had like the cutest, like, set up for them, and was just so absolutely wonderful with my kids.

[00:20:55] Kristin: And it was such a change, because we [00:21:00] actually met through a previous babysitter situation that was Exactly the opposite of that. So, so

[00:21:09] Andrea: you were working full time, had two little kids and then, yeah, what did you know about, what did you know about Joe’s [00:21:20] situation when you met, when you met them?

[00:21:22] Kristin: Not a whole lot to very, I don’t like to pry.

[00:21:27] Kristin: I very much like people to give whatever they’re willing and I don’t ever want to make anyone uncomfortable. So I didn’t. Probably too much. I knew that they needed a place to stay. I fucking [00:21:40] love Joe. Like, I, they’re family, like, and so I knew that there was rough, um, tension in between Joe and ma, and mother, and I didn’t know exactly what that all entailed until a bit later.

[00:21:58] Kristin: [00:22:00] Um, there was, I remember one The time I met her, you had been staying with me, I don’t think, for very long. And I don’t even recall what she, she kind of stormed up to the apartment. She, like, knocked on the door. I [00:22:20] don’t think she even said hello. She, like, asked whatever demanding question and left. Like, it was a very weird, awkward, tense, not normal conversation.

[00:22:30] Kristin: And that was the, that was the impression that I had. And then I don’t, I didn’t have any, like, real [00:22:40] interactions with her after that. Like, I had seen her at graduation party.

[00:22:46] Andrea: Jo has a lot of happy memories of Kristen from this time, and the young mom was a lifeline for them. But they also carried some mixed emotions about the relationship.

[00:22:56] Jo: Sometimes when I think back, I think I felt like, kind of like a [00:23:00] burden, or like I was just kind of like, Yeah, a burden, like the best word to describe that. Um, I’ve always felt kind of guilty, so it means a lot to hear, like, you say those things, because I didn’t know how you I mean, I know that you’ve always still, like, [00:23:20] showed up and still, like, loved me and stuff, so I knew all of that, but I didn’t know

[00:23:26] Kristin: yeah.

[00:23:26] Kristin: You’ve never, ever, ever been a burden to me, Jo. You’ve only ever brought light to my life. When We were living together, and we couldn’t anymore because we both [00:23:40] were struggling with an eating disorder that was competing and not, not doing well for either of us. It was healthy for us both to not live together at that point, and that was, that was, that was not, not you.

[00:23:54] Kristin: We both had that, and I love you. Like, [00:24:00] it’s, That’s a side, you know? I, I fully understand that feeling of feeling like you’re a burden because it’s a trauma response. I understand. I’ve felt that way too and that’s what keeps you from asking for help from [00:24:20] anyone is because you don’t want to burden anyone.

[00:24:22] Kristin: But Joe, you’ve never been a burden.

[00:24:24] Jo: I think that this has been like the craziest part of all of this so far is. Nobody has been saying the things that I like expect them to say from like the memories that I have, which obviously are from like my little kid, teenage [00:24:40] brain.

[00:24:42] Andrea: Watching these two talk, I feel like I’m witnessing Jo’s story of themselves be rewritten in real time.

[00:24:49] Andrea: I can see from Kristen’s face that she loves Jo and the warmth between them is palpable. I I know this isn’t what Joe expected, that they felt like [00:25:00] somehow there was something they needed to atone for.

[00:25:02] Jo: I definitely feel like I caused harm. Um, and I mean, for a long time, right, I like held beliefs that I’m like bad and evil and manipulative and like, all I do is cause harm and things like that.

[00:25:17] Jo: And I think over the past couple months, [00:25:20] um, that like shifted with just like different revelations that I’ve talked about having. Um, And I can like recognize that I still caused harm as a kid, as a teen, as a young adult. Um, but I could also recognize that it wasn’t like I was ever like trying to like hurt anyone and that it was [00:25:40] just like, I was unwell.

[00:25:42] Jo: I was in survival. Like I was literally a teenager that didn’t have a place to live. Um, and it was like trying to get through school and all of that sort of stuff. Um, but I can like, so I can recognize. That, but I think it feels really different to hear [00:26:00] like other people. I don’t hate you or like that, like you weren’t a burden or things like that.

[00:26:07] Jo: It feels really, really confusing. Cause I think I’ve been starting to know, notice that it seems like more people were aware of what was going on. And obviously you were like, had to have been somewhat aware since I was like [00:26:20] living with you as a teacher. But it’s like, so I know people were like aware and it’s like, I still felt so alone and was alone in a lot of ways.

[00:26:30] Jo: Some of it because I didn’t have words to verbalize like what was going on. I didn’t have any idea what was like all happening and stuff like that. So [00:26:40] like it makes sense, but it’s just like so confusing to like kind of hold both. Like I really did have a village, like I really did have a lot of really, really, really good people, good, safe people in my life.

[00:26:55] Jo: I was still in a really shitty situation for that was like out of [00:27:00] a lot of people’s control.

[00:27:01] Andrea: Kristen becomes very emotional listening to Jo say all of this.

[00:27:06] Jo: What are you thinking?

[00:27:09] Kristin: Uh, I like fully, fully understand everything that you’re saying. Like, I totally get it and it, it hurts. Like I hurt. [00:27:20] I hurt for a 17 year old.

[00:27:22] Kristin: Jo, I hurt. Child. Joe that carried that.

[00:27:32] Kristin: You’d never. We all fucking cause harm. Like, all of us. Like, especially when we’re [00:27:40] teenagers. Like, we’re growing, we’re shitty. Like, my teenagers, I love them, but they’re shitty right now. Like, we all do shit. And we all cause harm. And you didn’t deserve any of the shit that you were going through. And none of that has None of that shit was [00:28:00] on you.

[00:28:01] Kristin: None of it. You weren’t evil. You weren’t doing anything. You, you were learning and growing and doing the best that you could with the tools that were in your box as we all were and I think that [00:28:20] Ten years makes a big difference and being able to recognize that Just the growth that I mean, psychologically, and it’s, it’s incredible.

[00:28:38] Kristin: Incredibly enlightening. [00:28:40]

[00:28:40] Andrea: Just as Joe’s first grade teacher Mrs. Becker did, Kristen remembers Donna as taking great pains to present herself as a good mom. Kristen explains what happened at Joe’s high school graduation party.

[00:28:53] Kristin: She wanted it to look like she was doing so much for Joe. [00:29:00] She didn’t do anything.

[00:29:01] Kristin: Like, literally, Joe arranged her entire graduation party. But I remember she was very, just very much wanting to be the mom that loves her daughter, wants everyone to, you know, know this is, this is my Joe, this is like, and again, this is many [00:29:20] years ago. But my overall, my overall impression was that she, I very much wanted an audience for her good parenting when she wasn’t present as a parent from what I could tell, because Joe is living with me.[00:29:40]

[00:29:41] Kristin: And didn’t have, didn’t see her, didn’t talk to her. She didn’t come by and check on her to see how she was doing. The graduation party. I have pictures of

[00:29:54] Jo: us together, um, at my grad party. So I reached out to my [00:30:00] mom and said, Hey, I need all of the pictures of me from when I was a kid so I can do something for my grad party.

[00:30:06] Jo: And, um, my mom was like, You have to give these back. These are so important. Oh my god, yeah, that’s right. You better not ruin them. I still have them. All of them. I just, I’ve told her that I lost them or something. Or I [00:30:20] ignore the text. But, for years, like probably a good decade, she would like randomly reach out and be like, Do you have those pictures?

[00:30:26] Jo: And I’d be like, I don’t know what you’re talking about. They’re mine. It’s literally me. I knew about that. But, so I like, Got these big poster boards and kind of put together all these pictures, [00:30:40] um, and got help because I had no idea what I was doing and stuff. And at that time, I was still really involved with my church, even though later found out that that same church, like, people had been warning people about me, um, and to stay away from me.

[00:30:56] Jo: Because I was like a bad kid or something who’s to [00:31:00] say but um But they did they did the performance. They made food for the grad party I you know, I invited people I was 17 and like put together this whole thing As someone who was so sheltered my entire life. No idea what I was doing [00:31:20] But we got some people to make some food my sister’s Husband’s mom made cupcakes.

[00:31:28] Jo: Um, and then I like reserved a space at a park or somehow. Literally don’t know how any of it came together. But, and then, yeah, my, my mom showed up. [00:31:40] I’m pretty sure Dale showed up. Um, I want to say Raza might have showed up, but I can’t remember. I’m pretty sure he did because I remember me, or he was maybe going to, I remember being terrified that.

[00:31:53] Jo: Both my dads are going to be like in the same place at the same time. Um, weird enough having my mom and dad there, [00:32:00] but yeah, my mom came in and just acted like she had put it all together.

[00:32:06] Andrea: Kristen had essentially taken over as Joe’s parent during this time. Not that Donna exactly thanked her for it.

[00:32:15] Jo: I don’t remember my mom ever

[00:32:16] Kristin: coming to your house at all.

[00:32:18] Kristin: I do, like, [00:32:20] that’s how I met her. Like, she came to my house, and maybe it was even when it was like, did the pictures. Maybe that’s what, like, but I just remember, like, her coming and just say, I think she was like, where’s Joe, and I don’t remember. But it was like she didn’t ever like acknowledge [00:32:40] me or like say, like, like, hi, I’m Joe’s mom.

[00:32:43] Kristin: Nice to meet you. There wasn’t that intro, there, yeah, like there wasn’t, there was no introduction that ever happened. It was like, where’s this? Okay.

[00:32:53] Andrea: After she met Donna, Kristen began to understand that this went far beyond the normal parent teen tension.

[00:32:59] Kristin: I had, [00:33:00] like, my mom and I had some rough times.

[00:33:03] Kristin: Years. I think like all teenagers do, but it, it wasn’t the same dynamic. And I think I was a bit shocked when, I think I connected with Joe over like, kind of issues with mom. But then when I [00:33:20] met her, I’m like, this is not, this is not the same. Cause like, this is not a normal relationship. Communication between mother and daughter, like it just wasn’t, I don’t know, it was very, it didn’t seem right.

[00:33:37] Kristin: Loving? It seemed, it was [00:33:40] very, like, coercive and demanding.

[00:33:42] Andrea: During this time, Kristen was really up to her eyeballs in life stuff. A young mom in a troubled relationship struggling with her own eating disorder. And yet, she clocked that what was going on between Joe and their mom was serious. There was something really dark simmering beneath the surface.

[00:33:59] Andrea: But Kristen couldn’t [00:34:00] put her finger on it until later, when Joe began to open up about the fact that they’d been a victim of Munchausen by proxy abuse.

[00:34:06] Kristin: I think just being connected through social media. I just followed Joe through their story on social media and kept up to date that way. And [00:34:20] when they started coming to light with all of these things, it was like, it all made so much more sense.

[00:34:27] Kristin: You know, it, she made a lot more sense. Because it is that kind of wanting attention, demandingly, I don’t know.

[00:34:36] Jo: Do you remember me [00:34:40] ever like being sick or having like different physical issues, I guess,

[00:34:47] Kristin: going on? In line with the eating disorder, yes, but other than that,

[00:34:54] Jo: no. Yeah, which actually that makes like so much sense.

[00:34:58] Jo: I talk a lot about how I [00:35:00] think. Once I left the home, I wasn’t sick anymore. Like, in that way. Like, I wasn’t going to the hospital for asthma or for like neutropenia or all these like wild things that I supposedly had, but it was the eating disorder, like, took over in that way. And I mean, you know, I was in and out of treatment centers.

[00:35:19] Andrea: [00:35:20] You work in the medical field. Did you have, before hearing Joe’s story, did you have any awareness of Munchausen by proxy?

[00:35:29] Kristin: No. Um, I, I’d heard of it. I’d known of it, personally seen it. No, not, not to my knowledge. Did you, did you like,

[00:35:38] Andrea: have any training about it or [00:35:40] learn about it, sort of, in any of your medical training?

[00:35:42] Kristin: No. I mean, in school, in psychology, I learned about it just as much, like, As, along with a whole slew of other psychological disorders, but not in depth, no. I have read more into it, obviously, since. [00:36:00] And I think that it’s definitely, um, the alarm bells go off a lot more in depth. And I also work in Urgent Care.

[00:36:09] Kristin: I have a bunch of jobs, but I also work in Urgent Care as a medical assistant. And there are definitely, uh, I see warning bells there because we get [00:36:20] that repetitive mother bringing their child back with the same type of, like, symptoms and situations. And I think that knowing of this definitely creates the awareness to help.

[00:36:37] Kristin: future people like it. [00:36:40] Awareness is you can’t fix it without being aware of it.

[00:36:45] Jo: Mrs. Becker also like commented on like, she kind of like became aware of the extent of more of my trauma also through social media. Um, and it’s like interesting. Cause when I think back, like I was, [00:37:00] obviously I was living with you.

[00:37:02] Jo: So like you knew like certain things, but I feel like Really, most of my life, like, I kept so much to myself. I also repressed so much, and like, I didn’t have awareness. Like, you could have asked questions, and I’m not sure I would have had any memory of it, [00:37:20] because I don’t think I really I blocked, like, pretty much everything out, um, until, like, 2016.

[00:37:28] Jo: So it’s like, yeah, you could have asked all the right questions, and I still don’t think I would have. Had the words or the language or any sort of, um, the like [00:37:40] understanding. I just knew that I was unwell.

[00:37:50] Andrea: How does it feel to see how far Jo’s come since?

[00:37:55] Kristin: Fucking glorious.

[00:38:06] Andrea: The mystery of Joe’s medical history is one they’ve spent years unraveling and while we’re in Hutchinson We stopped by a place that is easily as familiar to Joe as any of the houses. They lived in with Donna

[00:38:19] Dr. McGuiness: I’m dr. Kate [00:38:20] McGinnis, and I’m a family doctor in Hutchinson, Minnesota And I’ve been here for 30 40 plus years and I took care of Joe when she was young on and off

[00:38:30] Jo: I remember dr.

[00:38:31] Jo: Morgan is being really safe You Um, I, yeah, I remember just always feeling really [00:38:40] safe and like I could tell her a lot of things. Obviously, I didn’t know a lot of what was going on for me, um, but she was the first person that I ever told that I had been like purging to, um, I mean, she asked like outright, like, have you ever made yourself throw up?

[00:38:56] Jo: And I was like, Oh my gosh, no one’s ever asked me this [00:39:00] before. Um, I said yes. And then I know. For a while, I like saw her weekly, um, to get weights and draw labs and just like make sure that the eating disorder stuff wasn’t, um, causing too much physical, physical damage until she helped me get into Melrose Center in the [00:39:20] cities.

[00:39:20] Myrriah: And what do you remember about,

[00:39:22] Jo: um,

[00:39:22] Myrriah: I know it was a while ago, but what do you remember about that time seeing Jill?

[00:39:26] Dr. McGuiness: Well, that I was worried about her and that I knew things weren’t going well. Yeah. Okay. Cool. And we did not have a lot of resources for eating disorders. It was just all, you know, kind of coming out in the 90s.[00:39:40]

[00:39:40] Jo: Yeah, I think, yeah, my memory, really once the eating disorder kind of was more like full force, I didn’t have many other health issues. It was really the eating disorder. Um, I don’t think my mom came with to a lot of, a lot of the appointments. Do [00:40:00] you have any memory

[00:40:00] Andrea: of meeting Jo’s mom? Oh

[00:40:01] Jo: yeah.

[00:40:04] Andrea: What were her issues?

[00:40:05] Andrea: I

[00:40:10] Dr. McGuiness: know that she was pretty dysfunctional and had a lot of issues. I think that was part of why you developed your eating disorder, with some of her dysfunction is my impression. [00:40:20] But your grandma played into that too, I think too.

[00:40:24] Jo: What do you mean?

[00:40:24] Dr. McGuiness: Well, I think, when I was looking at your Tart last night, I looked at one note from Melrose, your initial evaluation, and they said something about your grandma said, you know, told you to always suck in your gut or you’d look fat.

[00:40:39] Dr. McGuiness: [00:40:40] So I don’t know if that was, if you have that memory too. Oh, yeah. So that’s not really a healthy thing.

[00:40:47] Speaker 4: I think

[00:40:47] Dr. McGuiness: that people should be saying to anybody. But yeah, I think there was plenty of issues to go around.

[00:40:56] Jo: Yeah, yeah, I remember that like vividly. I was wearing my like [00:41:00] green and blue swimsuit, and Um, I like sat down and then my grandma was like No, like stand up, suck in your stomach before you sit down.

[00:41:10] Jo: Otherwise, like you’ll look fat And that did stick with me for like, I mean for so much of my life I would do exactly that because I thought that’s [00:41:20] like what you’re supposed to do and then Not long after that I started like weighing myself every day You Um, didn’t understand weight at the time, but like, it just became like a, probably around seven.

[00:41:31] Jo: Yeah, I have a picture of me in that like, little [00:41:40] bathing suit. Um, and I was like, yeah, I was a very tiny kid. Um, like I needed more food to be eating. Like I was unhealthy. So then to be telling me that I like should suck in my stomach because I’m like looking a certain [00:42:00] way or things like that I mean, obviously all fatphobic and like inappropriate regardless

[00:42:07] Andrea: This piece of Joe’s story is unfortunately all too relatable and I am certain I’m not the only one who is just transported back to some bad swimsuit moment from their own childhood So [00:42:20] yes, just a reminder to those who need it Don’t make comments to kids about their bodies, because an off the cuff remark can lodge itself in their spongy little brains forever.

[00:42:30] Andrea: Don’t do it to the fat kids. Don’t do it to the skinny kids. Just don’t. Okay? Don’t. Much like their teacher, Mrs. Becker, Joe’s [00:42:40] doctors were deeply concerned about their well being and tried to intervene.

[00:42:44] Dr. McGuiness: I know that Dr. Wilson said she She was really worried about you and had documented in confidential files and turned you into social services.

[00:42:53] Andrea: Dr. Wilson is a big part of Jo’s story of discovery, and we’ll be talking to her in the next episode. Jo [00:43:00] found themselves in a predicament that many survivors encounter. By the time they discovered that nothing about their health history made any sense, the documentation that would have been able to illuminate it is long gone.

[00:43:13] Andrea: When did you become aware?[00:43:20]

[00:43:24] Dr. McGuiness: Hard to say. I mean, I’d have to go back and look at my notes, which I can’t access because they’re three computer systems ago, which is a problem with changing computer systems. But I would think that I kind of had that in the back of my mind. You know, when, when people have an issue, [00:43:40] whether it’s chronic ear infections or Winchelson’s by proxy, Depression, anxiety, whatever it is, it goes on your problem list, and you review that before you see every patient, so you kind of have, oh, these are the things they’ve had in the past.

[00:43:54] Dr. McGuiness: I

[00:43:55] Jo: had a long problems list.

[00:43:58] Dr. McGuiness: Yeah. Yeah. It was [00:44:00] really long. So, but I mean, just to, to be aware of that, but like I said, I think I mostly saw you, and we were focusing on what you said, and weighing you in, and talking about. What all was going on and

[00:44:14] Jo: telling me to eat. Trying to get you into

[00:44:16] Dr. McGuiness: treatment. I mean, because at that time, I think Melrose Place [00:44:20] was the only eating disorders option we had.

[00:44:25] Dr. McGuiness: You know, I think, like I say, I was worried about you. I know things couldn’t have been good at home. Um, but I don’t think we talked a lot about exactly what was going on. Cause that would be pretty [00:44:40] classic of a child of an alcoholic.

[00:44:42] Jo: I, I told you I think more than like anyone. Um, which says a lot, right?

[00:44:47] Jo: If you like say like I didn’t really say much. Um, but I remember like, yeah, coming in to the appointments. I was always nervous cause I was gonna get in trouble or [00:45:00] something. Um, not like cause you ever made me feel that way, but just cause like I, that I wasn’t eating or I was purging or like doing things that were harmful.

[00:45:10] Jo: Um, so I was always like nervous about that. But at the same time, I liked coming in, I guess every week, like I liked [00:45:20] that, like you, you were like my support, like you were like that adult in my life or whatever. And, um, I’m sure that that like played out with, The struggles with the eating disorder, you know, like to keep me being able to come see you every week and things like that.

[00:45:36] Jo: Um, cause I just needed that, [00:45:40] that safety and that safe person. Um, but I, yeah, cause I remember it was like, yeah, like a love hate relationship with coming here. Like I didn’t want to cause I didn’t want to tell you that I was still not doing what I was supposed to, but then at the same time I just wanted, um, To have someone to talk to for a [00:46:00] little bit.

[00:46:00] Jo: And I

[00:46:00] Dr. McGuiness: think that’s pretty common and pretty classic. You know, at the time, we did not have, like, the mental health unit didn’t do a lot of eating disorder stuff. And I had other people with eating disorders who would come to weigh in with rocks in their pockets and things like that, so, I [00:46:20] mean it was, you have to really

[00:46:23] Jo: be careful.

[00:46:25] Jo: I thought that just smelling food, the calories would like seep into my skin, and like, So, I was so struggling very, very deeply. Um, but now like, [00:46:40] sometimes I’ll be like, wow, it’s kind of weird that I’m just eating. But like, that’s like the most, it’s just like a slight thought where I’m like, whoa, this is different.

[00:46:47] Jo: But like, now I’m like, oh, I’m hungry, I need food. Like, I don’t really think much. It’s such a positive

[00:46:53] Dr. McGuiness: thing. Because there are plenty of people who struggle their whole lives, so I just am so impressed with the progress you’ve [00:47:00] made. I just want to reiterate how impressed I am, how far you’ve come. Because people can go the other way and become more psychiatrically ill when they’ve had difficult childhoods.

[00:47:14] Dr. McGuiness: Well, your childhood then, I think it’s reasonable. [00:47:20] And you’ve just really, really turned yourself around. It made such a positive impact on the world. I’m very impressed. Pat yourself on the back.

[00:47:38] Andrea: Next time, we [00:47:40] go down the medical records rabbit hole with Jo and talk about how the trauma they suffered impacted their young mind.

[00:47:47] Jade: I would say being a multiple is having one body that has many selves in the mind. So you have many independent selves who share one physical body. And most of the time it’s [00:48:00] understood that the biggest reason that can happen is from surviving extreme and prolonged trauma.

[00:48:07] Andrea: Nobody Should Believe Me is written, hosted, and produced by me, Andrea Dunlop. Our Senior Producer and Editor is Mariah Gossett. Greta Stromquist is our Associate Producer. Engineering by Robin Edgar. [00:48:20] And administrative support from Nola Karmush. Music provided by Johnny Nicholson and Joel Schupach with additional music and sounds from SoundSnap.

[00:48:28] Andrea: And thank you to Cadence 3 for additional recording [00:48:40] support.